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Nagakura and Harada's secession

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#1144 [2004-06-17 14:27:13]

Nagakura and Harada's secession

by tamagot93

Thank you for your welcome messages!

In only book I have now with me called "Shinsengumi Jitsuroku"(Authentic
records of Shinsengumi), author gives an interesting analys about Nagakura and
Harada's secession after retreat from Koshu.

Here is a resume.

*Nagakura and Harada understand that Kondo transfered them the right to
command during the retreat. And Nagakura make a proposal to march toward Aizu with
current troop strength.
*Nagakura who considers Kondo always as his fellow, is offended to see Kondo,
now became a direct vassal of Shogun of 300 koku.
*Kondo probably thinks it would be better to recrute more solders and after
training, he' ll go to Aizu with them as the Supreme Commander.
*So their discordant is due to different strategic point of view as well as
their sentimental confrict.

I have no intenion to idealize Kondo, may be he became little bit haughty,
but it was a point of view of Nagakura's side.
As I know similer condition in the history, I guesse what might be happened
in a defeated army.

Tama








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[Next #1177]

#1177 [2004-06-18 22:30:47]

Re: Nagakura and Harada's secession

by serizawakamo

First of all, welcome, Tama-san ^^ Yoroshiku ^^ It's
great to see a Japanese on this list, as it will only
enrich more the discussion ^^


> Thank you for your welcome messages!
>
> In only book I have now with me called "Shinsengumi
> Jitsuroku"(Authentic
> records of Shinsengumi), author gives an interesting
> analys about Nagakura and
> Harada's secession after retreat from Koshu.
>
> Here is a resume.
>
> *Nagakura and Harada understand that Kondo
> transfered them the right to
> command during the retreat. And Nagakura make a
> proposal to march toward Aizu with
> current troop strength.
> *Nagakura who considers Kondo always as his fellow,
> is offended to see Kondo,
> now became a direct vassal of Shogun of 300 koku.
> *Kondo probably thinks it would be better to recrute
> more solders and after
> training, he' ll go to Aizu with them as the Supreme
> Commander.
> *So their discordant is due to different strategic
> point of view as well as
> their sentimental confrict.


That's pretty interesting, since in Nagakura's
"Shinsengumi Tenmatsuki" he says explicitly that they
parted ways because Kondo wanted to accept Nagakura
and Harada's proposal if and only if he (Kondo) would
be the supreme commander and the others would have to
be his vassals ("kerai"), without mentioning anything
on this strategic point of view.

I don't have the Bunkyu Roshi Shimatsuki (don't
remember if this was the correct name...) to check
this info, though. The Tenmatsuki is just too
novelized for my liking to be considered a trustworthy
source of info. I prefer Shinsengumi Shimatsuki and
Ibun in this aspect.


> I have no intenion to idealize Kondo, may be he
> became little bit haughty,
> but it was a point of view of Nagakura's side.
> As I know similer condition in the history, I guesse
> what might be happened
> in a defeated army.


Perhaps...

btw, changing the subject:

1) Sesshu (Setsutsu) sumi Ikeda Kijinmaru Kunishige:
Kunishige is the name of the swordsmith. Sesshu is the
name of the place. This is a sword forged in the Tenwa
Era and, as of 1986, it was worth about 50,000 US
dollars.

It is a Shinto (newer than Koto and older than
Shin-Shinto), classified as Jo-josaku (2nd highest
class in the aesthetical aspect) and as a Wazamono
(4th highest class in the blade sharpness aspect).

Source: "Touken Youran".

2) For those who like old anime, try finding an old
anime (from the 80's) called Haguregumo, produced by
Mad House. It features the Shinsengumi. I haven't
watched it, but I've seen some screenshots of it and
it's gorgeous, mixing sumi-e and ukiyo-e to draw
scenes and background.

3) Nagakura Shinpachi has lots of interesting tales...
the Kashiku pleasure woman thing, the murder of Haga
Gido (Yoshimichi?), the incident where he drank too
much with Saitou Hajime and Itou Kashitarou and was
almost condemned to death, the Ryubi no Ken incident
where he got wounded below the eye, the failed attempt
of murder of Kiyokawa Hachiro and others that were
already listed and/or discussed here, like the meeting
with Suzuki Mikisaburo. :)

4) Masayoshi, no offense intended, but I consider
Saigo Takamori a hero too :) The Ishin side has also
plenty of good and worthy man. Weren't for Saigo
Takamori, who could have understood the plea of
Yamaoka Tesshu / Katsu Kaishu and avoided bloodshed in
Edo? That's just one example to show that there were
good men in the Shogunate side and in the Ishin side,
as well as bad men in both, IMHO :)


Serizawa Kamo



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#1178 [2004-06-18 22:58:09]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Nagakura and Harada's secession

by spiritus_saitou

Serizawa Kamo <serizawakamo@...> wrote:
>>Nagakura Shinpachi has lots of interesting tales...
the incident where he drank too much with Saitou Hajime and Itou Kashitarou and was almost condemned to death<<

You like cliffhangers, don't you, SK... :-D Would you mind elaborating on that??? (And just where was the alcoholic little brother, I wonder... was Suzuki already under the table (if that was even possible)?)

>>4) Masayoshi, no offense intended, but I consider
Saigo Takamori a hero too :) The Ishin side has also
plenty of good and worthy man. Weren't for Saigo
Takamori, who could have understood the plea of
Yamaoka Tesshu / Katsu Kaishu and avoided bloodshed in
Edo? That's just one example to show that there were
good men in the Shogunate side and in the Ishin side,
as well as bad men in both, IMHO :)<<

And just possibly Saigou is an example of how a man could be both good AND bad... a human condition. Unless you can give me some good evidence to the contrary (and you're probably one person who can), I will go on thinking he had a role in Sagara Souzou's demise. And certainly there is no offense meant on my part... the times were incredibly difficult, confusing, and deeply emotional. It's amazing to me just how much more deeply I feel about certain people and ideas during the bakumatsu and Restoration than I feel for my own country's revolution. It's weird.

phil (Itou & Saitou drinking together??? If you can't trust your drinking buddies, who can you trust? :-D)
phil


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#1180 [2004-06-19 04:28:50]

Re: Nagakura and Harada's secession

by secretarytocapt3

Sword gradings....so painfully complicated :)...
Anime from the 80s rarely get licensed in the U.S. :( but is sounds
really really good...this title and Kon Ichikawa's Shinsengumi should
be available to the public!
Saitou+Itou+Nagakura drinking...probably a perfect way to position
himself (Saitou) to get close to Itou before the Itou Affair...perhaps
Hijikata was aware of this too...and thought...Saitou is perfect for
this job since Itou trusts him...There was a Japanese post along time
ago and it was a question which babelfish translated as "Fujita died a
drunkard?" something along those lines
Phil, I bet Miki was there too...perhaps because he isn't an
"important" person he isn't mentioned...more reason for Miki to hate
Saitou...

***don't we all wanna hear about the pleasure woman business LOL!

secretarytocapt3
thinking about "the last Shinsengumi" and how he died in the
1930s...he was at Aizu...I wonder if wrote anything down or spoke to
people about his experiences...

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Serizawa Kamo wrote:
> 1) Sesshu (Setsutsu) sumi Ikeda Kijinmaru Kunishige:
> Kunishige is the name of the swordsmith. Sesshu is the
> name of the place. This is a sword forged in the Tenwa
> Era and, as of 1986, it was worth about 50,000 US
> dollars.
>
> It is a Shinto (newer than Koto and older than
> Shin-Shinto), classified as Jo-josaku (2nd highest
> class in the aesthetical aspect) and as a Wazamono
> (4th highest class in the blade sharpness aspect).
>
> Source: "Touken Youran".
>
> 2) For those who like old anime, try finding an old
> anime (from the 80's) called Haguregumo, produced by
> Mad House. It features the Shinsengumi. I haven't
> watched it, but I've seen some screenshots of it and
> it's gorgeous, mixing sumi-e and ukiyo-e to draw
> scenes and background.
>
> 3) Nagakura Shinpachi has lots of interesting tales...
> the Kashiku pleasure woman thing, the murder of Haga
> Gido (Yoshimichi?), the incident where he drank too
> much with Saitou Hajime and Itou Kashitarou and was
> almost condemned to death, the Ryubi no Ken incident
> where he got wounded below the eye, the failed attempt
> of murder of Kiyokawa Hachiro and others that were
> already listed and/or discussed here, like the meeting
> with Suzuki Mikisaburo. :)

[Previous #1178] [Next #1181]

#1181 [2004-06-19 08:53:09]

Re: Nagakura and Harada's secession

by secretarytocapt3

From my own superficial research western scholars are sympathetic to
Saigo because what has been left behind, his poetry, and many images
of his son tugging at his clothes as he left for battle all of which
contribute to a very human image.

In both books I skimmed through the writers were very touched by his
son's love---without recalling that thousands of men were in similar
positions of leaving families behind to fight this war.

Similarly, the government has left behind paintings of Saigo
struggling in a hell-like environment and one painting was pretty
scary of a headless Saigo wielding a sword (his head flew threw the
air his eyes were red). Thus, the government did its part in public
relations to demonize him.

We all bring certain sensitivities to our study but people who have
published works forget a key element to the big picture---politics
is always a dirty game no matter how well-intentioned the person was
to start with and Saigo was involved with politics. For example the
incident of the weapons seizure at Kagoshima as well as the build up
of potentially rebellious elements in the schools within the Satsuma
domain have been wildly interpreted...most opinions are extreme as
to whether it is fair to blame Saigo.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Serizawa Kamo wrote:
> 4) Masayoshi, no offense intended, but I consider
> Saigo Takamori a hero too :) The Ishin side has also
> plenty of good and worthy man. Weren't for Saigo
> Takamori, who could have understood the plea of
> Yamaoka Tesshu / Katsu Kaishu and avoided bloodshed in
> Edo? That's just one example to show that there were
> good men in the Shogunate side and in the Ishin side,
> as well as bad men in both, IMHO :)
>
>
> Serizawa Kamo
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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#1226 [2004-06-22 09:39:02]

Re: Re: Re: Nagakura and Harada's secession

by serizawakamo

> Serizawa Kamo <serizawakamo@...> wrote:
> >>Nagakura Shinpachi has lots of interesting
> tales...
> the incident where he drank too much with Saitou
> Hajime and Itou Kashitarou and was almost condemned
> to death<<
>
> You like cliffhangers, don't you, SK... :-D Would
> you mind elaborating on that??? (And just where was
> the alcoholic little brother, I wonder... was
> Suzuki already under the table (if that was even
> possible)?)



As much as I'd love to provide more info, I can't
write anything too long anytime soon, thanks to my
graduate studies :( Perhaps later on or perhaps in a
future chat? :)



> >>4) Masayoshi, no offense intended, but I consider
> Saigo Takamori a hero too :) The Ishin side has also
> plenty of good and worthy man. Weren't for Saigo
> Takamori, who could have understood the plea of
> Yamaoka Tesshu / Katsu Kaishu and avoided bloodshed
> in
> Edo? That's just one example to show that there were
> good men in the Shogunate side and in the Ishin
> side,
> as well as bad men in both, IMHO :)<<
>
> And just possibly Saigou is an example of how a man
> could be both good AND bad... a human condition.


That's true enough.


> Unless you can give me some good evidence to the
> contrary (and you're probably one person who can), I
> will go on thinking he had a role in Sagara Souzou's
> demise.


I don't think so. I don't have the Shinsenbumi Ibun
here with me, but I recall that it was another Ishin
Shishi who ordered the attack on the Sekihoutai.


Serizawa Kamo

And talking about songs...

"Kamo no kawara ni chidori ga sawagu
Mata mo chi no ame namida ame
Bushi to iu na ni inochi wo kakete
Shinsengumi wa kyou mo iku"

A VERY ROUGH translation:
"The birds are restless at the margins of the Kamo
river
Again, there is a rain of blood, a rain of tears
Betting their lives on the title of 'warrior'
the Shinsengumi goes today once again"

(the only Shinsengumi song I've got so far, sung by
Mihachi Michiya)



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#1348 [2004-07-07 08:43:41]

Haguregumo

by secretarytocapt3

So does anyone know where I can see screenshots of Haguregumo...a
good side effect of the commercialization of the Shinsengumi
could/should be the re-release of some of these obscure works.
I like old anime...I like the "pre-computer" feel of hand drawn
animation

I'm still angsting over the unreleased "Shinsengumi" animated film
by Kon Ichikawa (his best easy to find live action films are THE KEY
and BURMESE HARP)...and no its not a puppet show as mentioned
elsewhere on the internet he used paper "dolls" it seems and Kondo
looks just like historical Kondo! And from the screenshots there
are beautiful shadows and stuff (not to mention that it shows the
Itou Affair).

Serizawa Kamo wrote
> 2) For those who like old anime, try finding an old
> anime (from the 80's) called Haguregumo, produced by
> Mad House. It features the Shinsengumi. I haven't
> watched it, but I've seen some screenshots of it and
> it's gorgeous, mixing sumi-e and ukiyo-e to draw
> scenes and background.
>

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